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  1. Kimiko

    Kimiko Porn Star

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    There's a big difference between saying that ONE poor person can seize upon an opportunity to become successful, and saying that ALL poor people can seize upon opportunities to become successful. That's a fallacy, and one that conservatives love to exploit. They'll point to one success story, and use it to say that if you're poor, you're lazy, but if you work hard, you'll be rich someday.
     
  2. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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    And there is a big difference in saying if one particular person can't do it, then nobody can.

    That is not the point I was attempting to make at all, people are not poor because they are lazy. Nor will hard work guarantee success. However, there are opportunities out there for those who wish to look for them. Each time we have a recession or worse a depression, there are folks who seem to find a new niche for themselves. Those opportunities are still there, are there enough for every single unemployed, underemployed or wrongly employed person, no. But will anyone have a chance of finding their niche if they do not try, no

    There is one thing that is undeniable, in our system, a person can achieve most anything they are willing to try. If they have the talent, the initiative and the stubbornness to work at it. Where the problem lies in when folks have been employed as machines, doing droll tasks resulting in sheer boredom, if they get used to this, chances are they will never seek to better themselves.
     
  3. stumbler

    stumbler Porn Star

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    Tenguy, you made a completely false claim about Edward Deming and the auto industry and UAW. It was a bullshit lie. I've proven that a half dozen times by now. Deming did not blame the UAW and instead said the problem was the way the auto companies and most other us business were managed.

    Is it now? Then why have you done exactly that. The only aspect of Deming you've talked of is your completely false claim that some how Deming blamed the failure of the US auto industry on the UAW. When all evidence is completely contrary to that claim. You won't even acknowledge that the first thing Deming did was redefine the relationship between management and workers. He all but wrote a workers bill of rights in his 14 point management plan, and encouraged the creation of Unions for workers in Japan.

    Pretty foolish and misguided of you not to recognize those aspects of Deming's management model.

    He was first revered by the Japanese for his expertise in statistics but instead told them their goal of becoming respected and profitable depended not on statistics, but in the way they WORKED WITH their employees and managed their companies.

    His approach was revolutionary because instead of management dictating to employees what to build and how, management's job was to go to the employees and ask them what they needed in order to do a better job. The Japanese accepted that and surpassed the US in nearly every industry. Industry in the US has ignored or rejected Deming's management model and consequently depend on tax payer bailouts for their failures.l

    You don't get to lie about that and try to blame it on the people who were working for a living.


    My how impressive. I guess that's why US industry followed Deming's statistical approach during world war two and then pretty much quit using even that much of Deming's approach when times got fat and the profits were rolling in rebuilding the rest of the world.

    But let me point out something to you that proves what I've been saying which is that Deming is mostly ignored by US Industry and management for more than 30 years and continues to reject his management model.

    Off the top of my head I'd say you've mentioned about a half dozen companies that used at least some aspect of the Deming Model. Hell tenguy, I'll give you a hundred of those businesses. No ......... tell you what ......... lets make it a thousand US businesses. Wait, wait lets go all out and say that in the last 50 years 10,000 US businesses have embraced the Deming Management Model and operate their company according to his teachings. No, better yet we better go 100,000 US business using the Deming's model of management right now because even then it would amount to .73% of American businesses and firms that follow the Deming's model of management.

    Oh yeah for all his amazing and proven knowledge Edward Deming is rejected by 99% of US businesses.

    You don't get to lie about that either.


    Really?? And only because Edward Deming told them to offer off season incentives? I find that fucking impossible to believe. I bet they actually adopted Deming's 14 point management approach as well.


    Opps I guess we'll have to scratch them off list of businesses willing to accept Deming's management model now don't we?


    Fucking liar tenguy. I'm the one who does know and understand Deming's approach to management and labor and you're the one talking out our ass about nearly everything pertaining to Deming.

    Its a very easy street for labor and management to cooperate once the barriers are taken down and workers are made to be a real part of the team. That's what Deming taught and that is what the Japanese did.

    The US did not and still has not which is the real reason the US has failed to keep up with our foreign competition. Not workers, tenguy, not union members. MANAGEMENT.
     
  4. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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    And the horse you rode in on.
     
  5. stumbler

    stumbler Porn Star

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    No as long as you keep on telling those blatant lies I'm going to keep pointing them out and documenting them.

    Just like the whopper below.


    Boy tenguy your lies get bigger all the time. Wiki can tell you all about US Steel since they are still very much in business.

    You won't find your tall tale of the Unions ending the US Steel industry though tenguy.

    Busted again.

    *not_secure_link*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Steel

    This isn't an egg or a chicken tenguy its just another one of your blatant lies.

    The UAW has consistently made concessions to the big three automakers. Its a lie to say the UAW hasn't or that they "throw gasoline" on the problem management created.

    And once again the proof that this is a lie and you know it is that Ford Motor Company also has UAW workers and they survived.
     
  6. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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  7. Distant Lover

    Distant Lover Master of Facts

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    Frank Sinatra was a good looking guy with a good singing voice. Mickey Mantle could knock a baseball out of the ballpark, even though he was an alcoholic. Bill Gates has an IQ of 165. People are born that way.
     
  8. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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    There is no such thing as luck, IMO, there is only being prepared or not to take advantage of opportunity.

    The old saying that "you make your own luck" is very true, waitng for it to come to you is wasted time.

    The talented people that you listed are great examples of those who took advantage of their gifts. We all have unique gifts, we only need to culture them and use them.

    Stumbler is a gifted writer of interesting memoirs, I thoroughly enjoy reading them, IMO he should exploit that talent.
     
  9. stumbler

    stumbler Porn Star

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    Here we go with a perfect example of your contradictory brainwashed propaganda that will not stand to a rational and logical test.

    I'll highlight the obvious contradictions.



    Good so far and I agree completely. We have a society with too few opportunities for the majority of people to advance. Surprisingly to some, many do manage to advance and better their lot in life, which is admirable and should be encouraged. But we cannot forget that in this instance the exceptions don't prove the rule. We still have millions of men women and children living in poverty with no statistically viable chance of advancing. And we as a society must change that and take care of the people trapped in poverty because, as you say, they are not poor because they are lazy.



    Ok you just contradicted yourself here. Right above this you admitted that there was not an opportunity for everyone to advance; " Nor will hard work guarantee success." But now your saying there are opportunities for those who wish to look. That's simply not true by your own statements. There are opportunities for some of those who wish to look but looking will not gurantee success anymore than hard work will.

    And here you contradict yourself within the same statement. You say even in hard economic times some folks find a niche (by definition a very small space). Obviously there is not a "niche" for every one anymore than there is a job and/or opportunity to advance for everyone, so the question at this point of "will anyone have a chance a finding a niche if they do not try"? Has absolutely no relevance what so ever about what we are talking about. Taken as a whole even if most people don't try it makes no difference because there are not even enough opportunities for the ones who do. You admitted that yourself.

    So where does that question have any logical or rational relevance to what you are saying? It doesn't, but it does reveal what you initially denied, which was poor people were not poor because they are lazy. But here you are saying essentially that if poor people know (the starkest reality of their daily life) that there is not an opportunity for the vast majority of them to advance, they will be too lazy to even try.

    That has always offended me to the most extreme tenguy because I'm telling you down at the poorest levels of this nation people are fucking struggling to survive and better themselves at the same time and that's not some of them that's the vast majority of them knowing full well the odds are stacked against them every way possible. But to you the only reasons they're still there is because they didn't look or they didn't really try. You're words and thoughts clearly betray you and reveal your dogmatic hypocrisy.

     
  10. letsgo1

    letsgo1 Porn Surfer

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    I agree100%. Why so many people want big government that is so wastful and intrusive is beyond me .
    I can't wait until November when a more conservative govenment takes over.
    History has proven time and time again that government is not the answer.
    People who want to change the very foundation of our countries core principles should move to Canada or western euopean countires.
     
  11. stumbler

    stumbler Porn Star

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    Ok I spoke too late and missed the picture I was going to show you tenguy but I can still paint it for you with words well enough I think to clearly demonstrate that what you just said is not just stupid its impossible. There is no possible way the private sector will be replacing the jobs that are shipped out. They're just gone. Just like the manufacturing jobs, shipped to third world countries.

    And that means there is a whole new class of unemployed in America. I saw a picture of them standing in seemingly unending lines at the unemployment office which as they shuffled toward their doom. Unemployment compensation is only temporary, having your job shipped overseas is permanent.

    Now, being a willing class warrior I almost laughed at first because everyone standing in that line was wearing a white collar and my initial reaction was now lets see how you like your turn at poverty. I'll bet you were all for poverty and against government programs when you sat behind that desk. Let's see how you feel about that when its your turn to be homeless.

    I doubt you believe that tenguy. I bet you can't really see white collar people being out of work for very long, let alone broke, homeless and in need of government aid for survival. Hey, you know what, I bet they believe that too. I know I sure did back in the 1980's. There was no way the greatest manufacturing nation on the face of the earth was going to give up that position and the very economic middle-class backbone of this nation.

    Man, was I a fool. What really happened was US corporations shipped our jobs to countries to manufacture things that were cheap enough for people living poverty to afford.

    The most simple math there is, is that the rich cannot continue to get richer unless someone is getting poorer. So first they cornered a consistent and completely dependable market on people living in poverty. Then they eliminated the middle class manufacturing jobs, but could produce goods and products cheap enough for people in poverty to buy. But in order for them (the top 1% of your economic class) to keep getting richer now their only choice is to make white collar people poorer, and ya know what .......... I think that guy who flew his plane into the IRS building just might indicate that upper middle class people don't take poverty all that well.

    It could get pretty messy around here and if it does I'm glad I've always maintained one true advantage over guys like you tenguy and most people like you. You're nothing without your money. It's as simple as this tenguy; you cannot eat money. I can eat what I see out my window and in 100 mile radios of it. I don't think most of you white collar boys are up to a little game of survival of the fittest. Here's the first hint. Better trade that useless single shot shotgun of yours and invest in something that will hold seven or eight shells. That won't help you with me though. If it come down to me and my famly's survival or yours. I'll shoot both you and your wife, and any other humans in sight without you so much as seeing me.

    So tenguy, you know maybe instead of looking at things with nothing but brainwashed senseless platitudes, false cherished notions and hypocritical conservative dogma you should take a real look at what's really happening. This is as close to potentially desperate people you and your class has ever been to in this nation and all you've really got is your money.


    You should not bring history into what is proven here, which is you know nothing about history and are actually a brainwashed fool.
     
  12. Distant Lover

    Distant Lover Master of Facts

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    This deserves to be framed and hanged on a thousand walls.
     
  13. stumbler

    stumbler Porn Star

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    No you're not. You're totally bluffing.

    First since I've proven what I said with documentation and sources you would obviously be the ridiculous phony.

    And you are most certainly right. Deming never said UAW was the problem, you did and either knew or should have known you were lying when you said it. Deming to the best of my research never said anything about the UAW. He said 85% of all the problems Ford was facing was the fault of management and only 15% from all other sources involved in the manufacturing system which would make the UAW a fraction of that 15%.

    I already told you, you can't lie about a true unrecognized hero and twist and corrupt what he discovered, tested, proved, and tried to offer to American industry only to be ignored and/or rejected by the overwhelming majority of all US industry and private sector businesses.

    That big one is a God Damned fucking lie by this point tenguy because I have provided several sources now detailing the concessions made by the UAW from the 1970's to this very day as new economic realities emerged.

    This is a run-on lie. Deming was not involved in US auto manufacturing during the 1950's according to everything I've ever read about him. So there's only two possibilities on that; either you're bullshitting or you're not, and if you're not bullshitting you can provide some documentation. And since you can't I guess that's one of these rhetorical questions ain't it.

    Which at least proves you're the one full of shit when it comes to Deming.

    No, big fucking lie. Deming recommended an employer/employee relationship which was revolutionary at the time and still rejected by the majority of US businesses to this very day. Because instead of top-down management Deming found bottom up management was what worked. You can't get any more radical and revolutionary than that tenguy when it comes to US businesses, which steadfastly clings to their management dictatorship model.

    Bullshit, that's the corruption of Deming. That's the trying to focus on only one aspect of what Deming discovered, tested, proved, and taught. It was not just the concept of production efficiencies or even his statistics and/or quality control that were admittedly scientific in their reliability, but not what was needed. Deming said and showed over and over again that those things were 15% of the problems when the way companies are managed are 85% of the problems.

    Bullshit tenguy. I just clearly demonstrated that it is you who is trying to focus on only limited factors while ignoring Deming's major conclusion and efforts. Once again 85% of the problems were the fault of how the companies were managed (and still are).

    Wow how fucking astute of you. The guy making calculators in Texas, and the guy building alternators, and the people building clothes and tools and toys and furniture and electronics MIGHT HAVE FOUND A JOB. That one guy might have found a job, but if he was lucky it paid half of what his manufacturing paid to shuffle papers, and if he was less lucky, he ended up flipping hamburgers for minimum wage and no benefits. Or like many of them just out of a job semi--permanently.

    And it just gets worse everyday as the new unemployed and the soon to be poor line up for temporary benefits for a permanent problem.

    No those are not facts. Those are outrageously obvious lies boarding on hysterical delusion. 10% of the people are looking for work. 7% of the workforce has given up looking for work. Of the 83% who do have a job, nearly 30% of those are subsisting below the poverty line. So much for your fucking facts.
     
  14. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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  15. stumbler

    stumbler Porn Star

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    If that's the case how come 4.5% of college graduates can't find a job. More people entering the job market than leaving it means nothing when there's no job for you. And that again is you white collar folks who have every advantage when it comes to getting a job.

    No shit tenguy?? God damn what a genius you are. How to you propose to do that. Just one fucking question tenguy more important than any other: HOW DO YOU PROPOSE TO EXPAND THE JOB MARKET?

    You're supposed to be the expert here so tell me how can we expand the job market by say 17.5%? I want you to tell me how we create even just 15% more jobs. And if you can, specifically explain where these new jobs are coming from I owe you an apology.

    But if you can't fuck you and stop lying like you're doing right here that government is no employment solution when right now that is nearly the only solution because the government is actually hiring. And you know what we need educated good hard working people working for our government.

    So it won't be the private sector that drives the economy. They've already bailed on the American economy and since all they are interested in corporate and stock holder profits they will just keep shedding jobs here and shipping them out to foreign countries.

    *not_secure_link*www.nytimes.com/2010/02/21/business/economy/21unemployed.html?hp
     
  16. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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    And the horse you rode in on.
     
  17. stumbler

    stumbler Porn Star

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    Two things tenguy. One; at least I can ride a horse. Two; you can't refute anything I said because all you do is babble irrational and illogical glorious brainwashed bullshit.

    PS If you can't answer this question, you're nothing but a blow hard lying fuck.
    HOW DO YOU PROPOSE TO EXPAND THE JOB MARKET?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2010
  18. Distant Lover

    Distant Lover Master of Facts

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    tenguy hasn't got an answer, so he will try to change the subject. Either that, or he will say we should cut taxes for the rich. George the Lesser did that. It did not work.

    I think we should expand the job market the same way Franklin Roosevelt did it: raise taxes on the rich, and hire people at government expense.
     
  19. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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    Let the private sector grow. Simple, eh?
     
  20. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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    You are incredibly stupid.